[geeks] Re: [rescue] God bless America

[geeks at sunhelp.org]

> 
> note: i apologize for my at-times rhetoric below, but its something i
> honestly feel and believe. don't laugh at my idiocy before you think about
> it first.
> 
It's not idiocy.  I read it several times.
> i had no idea things had begun to get this bad on the other lists. i
> suppose i was remiss/naive in believing bill when he said things were
> 'under control'

It's more polite here than other lists.
 

> stupid, ignorant, or naive? the average american has little knowledge of
> world history (let alone the history of western civilization). the
> majority of us weren't taught it, never read it, or simply have forgotten
> much of it due to feeling far too safe/secure for far too long. if any
> history is taught its usually a miss-mosh of condensed american history for
> one semester. thats about 16 weeks to absorb 500 years--and you can bet it
> didnt cover the political aspects of europe or foreign policy of
> spain in 1492.
> 
We do have World His-story in school too but it is the same mish-mosh.  Although I could
never understand why nothing "important" happened east of Poland.

> i spent 5 years studying western civilization prior to the middle ages.
> the one thing that was as apparent to me at 14 as it is now is that much
> of the middle east and europe has been at war due to X god since before
> christ. so apparently *noone* has learned from history. not them, not us,
> not you, not nato, not anyone if we're gonna sit here and spend our time
> placing blame instead of fixing the problems. united we stand and united
> we will all fall as long as religious ideals are in the mix somewhere.
> there is no good that comes from arguing and fighting people who are willing
> to die for their own martyrhood.
> 
> > But you really should consider that terrorism has proved to be rather
> > effective in the past.
> 
> effective, yes. its already achieved some very good (and very horrific)
> results here in the states. ones i hope wont be forgotten next week when all
> of our mortgages are due.

Less likely than at other times.

> > I guess that includes me then.  I don't think many Americans realise quite
> > how much they are hated by the huge numbers of people who are victims of
> > your government's foreign policies.  You crow about your much-vaunted
> > democracy, and yet you fail to use your democracy to elect decent people,
> > instead electing racist war-mongers.  THAT is how much of the world sees
> > you, and your failure to use that democracy, unfortunately, makes many
> > see individual citizens as being the enemy.
> 
> i'm of the opinion that you are absolutely correct in this.
> 
> david, i'm sure statistics are available somewhere from your recent
> elections up there. how much of the voting populace participated in the
> latest p.m. race?
> 
I think what happened is that this govenemnt went from a bottom-up govenemnt
to a top-down govenment.

> > Y'know, I find the vile reaction of a great many American citizens who I
> > had thought were decent, intelligent people to be far more disturbing than
> > the attack itself.
> 
> understand i am making no excuses here for anyone but i believe at least
> some explanations are overdue. many of us talking dont remember a time of
> war or what it is/was like, we were too busy to pay attention, or simply
> didnt worry since we were hell and gone from the action. that
> ignorance and naivety is hurting us now. give the people time to think and
> recover from all this and you might find a few changed minds, policies,
> and agendas.

I've said this on other lists.  But this would be the reaction from anybody, anywhere.
> as for my own opinion, i feel very strongly that i've heard and seen
> enough of blood being shed to last another few lifetimes. many people want
> revenge; all i want is justice. justice doesnt mean turning a country into
> a sheet of glass in order to find one man or punish a country for
> harboring a known and wanted terrorist. if it were, that country might
> well be our own for all 'we the people' know--the hijackers involved were
> living in florida for god's sake. WE HARBORED THESE PEOPLE.
> 
We didn't harbor these people.  They came and lived here.  We did not hide them from anyone.

> justice may mean extradition and a trial. justice may mean whoever is
> responsible going door to door for the rest of his life and apologizing for
> his directives. justice might be his ostracization from all societies (a
> truly historical way of dealing with infidels, look it up) because noone
> knows why all this was done because we've been force fed the ideal of not
> seeing the big picture for so long. we assumed people we elected were
> doing their jobs and we were comfortable being led along like sheep to a
> slaughterhouse as long as our bills were paid, our kids were healty and
> our employment secure.
> 
Agreed.  And the people that run our government want to keep it that way.

> > That 'only' killed a few thousand people, but there
> > are literally *hundreds* of thousands of innocent casualties of US foreign
> > policy.  And now, there seems to be a clamour to make even more of them.
> > There's plenty of you (both on this list and more generally) who should be
> > ashamed of yourselves.  I imagine that most will be when they get over the
> > immediate emotional impact.
> 
> am i ashamed of myself? when given my only choice between two evils and i
> chose the least evil? no.
> 
Same here.

> am i ashamed of my countrymen who are calling for the slaughter of millions
> and have for years? yes.
> 
Same here.

> am i ashamed of my country three days ago that tended to jump the gun in
> order to look like mr. bad-ass? absolutely, yes.
>
NO, I'm not.  I think it is a reaction that is normal.
 
> am i ashamed of my country *today*, where my president is taking his time
> to identify fully and completely those responsible before any further action is
> taken and seems to be listening to the sane minority of people and majority
> of world leaders when they say war and further bloodshed is not necessary
> for justice? hell no, and neither should you or anyone else.
> 
> for one of the first times, people here are waking up to a different
> world. let it sink in, let them think. then, instead of throwing blame,
> support us in our ignorance and show us gently what its like to be
> civilized. only then can we all stand united and live at peace.

Nicely put.  I've noticed one thing on every list I'm on, the only people
who seem to be blasting the reaction of those of us in the US seem to come
.uk sites.  Could it be that others from around the world can understand the
reactions to this event and are just letting us vent without comment since they
know this is a typical reaction?  I don't intend to start flames here but it was
an observation.