[geeks] perlish disgruntlement, java considered, sun hardware sought

[alex j avriette]

maybe dave can shed some light on this thread.

i'd like to start off by saying that i dont dislike perl. what i dislike 
is the perl userbase. i find that there is a very small group of people 
(perhaps only slightly larger than the perl5-porters mailing list) who 
actually care about their code. the rest seem to believe that perl is a 
"scripting" language or that perl == "cgi." i'm getting real sick of 
slogging through other peoples' code when i download a utility to, say, 
parse my snort logs. im also finding that php seems to be far better as 
a web-based scripting language (although i personally find it hideous). 
the more system administration i do, the more i realize how *ugh* sloppy 
our perl coders are ("our" meaning at $job). the reason perl code is not 
considered programming is that the people writing perl code *SUCK* at 
programming. with the abovementioned exception of a precious few.

perhaps perl6 will change this. perhaps perl5.8 will begin to change 
this. in the mean time, i'm fed up.

lets move on to a new gripe.

ive also never liked java. ive read about java (it would be 
irresponsible as a professional programmer and sysadmin not to), and i 
have two very significant problems with it:

the non-distinguishing between core java and java-on-the-web
the overuse and underunderstanding of the marketing

both of these make it a very hard language to learn. if you stfw for 
"java tutorial", you get a sun page explaining the ins and outs of 
applets and servlets. if you take training, the people who are teaching 
the courses drop terms like "ejb" "j2ee" "j2se" "bean" "jit" "jvm" "jdk" 
"jre" "swing" and so on -- without ever explaining them. like dumbo's 
magic feather, were clutching onto marketing as the language with the 
actual programming core language thrown in as a sort of afterthought.

it is my feeling that java is the cobol of the 2030's. you just wait; 
just like cobol (and indeed perl), we'll be cleaning up all kinds of 
horrific messes that were created because people didnt understand java 
(how could they?) and they trusted it to do too much.

that having been said, i try to be a professional programmer and unix 
admin. because java is taking off so rapidly (services servers, 
application servers, BEA servers, whateverthefuckelse servers), it is 
now important for me to know the language and its nooks and crannies.

because my macs, my employers windows machines, my unix machines, and my 
employers unix machines, all run jvm's, it is now important for me to 
know java.

because perl positions are becoming harder to find, it is now important 
for me to know java.

so i bought a couple of the Sun Press java books. it seems like a 
reasonably easy language to pick up (though i spent literally days 
trying to find a book that taught *java* not jsp, or other web related 
garbage, and further days getting my environments -- jdk, jakarta, ant, 
and so on -- set up). i think it may even be possible to learn to enjoy 
the language (hey, a language built on the premise that C sucks is ok in 
my book).

in the meantime it seems to me like the best way to do it might be (or, 
rather, most likely is) on Sun hardware and software. we've got a lot at 
work, but none that i can sort of confiscate and make my little java 
development bitch. i've been looking (where else) on ebay, and i'm 
seeing ultra 2's for ~$250-$400, ultra 1's from $150-$250, ultra 10's 
from $300-$600, and ultra 30's from $500-$1200. i know ultra2's, and 
theyre good little boxes. an ultra1 is probably sufficient. i've worked 
with ss10's and ss20's in the past, i just dont think its enough 
horsepower to do what i want to do. the ideal box for me would be an 
ultra10/440, but i suspect those are a smidge out of my price range (i'd 
like to pay < $350). it would be cool to have an SMP machine, but I find 
that I dont use the additional processor on my dual xeon machine at work 
(often).

currently, my java development machine is a pentium pro 200. the reason 
for this (i've got quite a few faster machines) is that the openbsd 
ports tree conveniently builds absolutely everything i need quickly and 
everything just "works." my osx machines have java seemingly working but 
if i want to install anything im screwed because of the nonstandard 
paths and libs. im sure you can imagine that even an ultra2/300 is a 
significant upgrade from a pentium1/200.

so, ok, this got a little longer than i expected. i'd like commentary on 
my thoughts on java. i'd also like commentary on my thoughts on perl. 
please let me know if youre looking to get rid of an ultrasparc. also 
please let me know if youre currently a java developer and you'd like to 
point me in a particular direction. i *hate* the web. i dont want to 
hear about jsp or servlets or applets or *barf* *hurl* *gag* .. ahem.

thanks.
alex

--
alex j avriette, <<this space for rent>> hacker
avriettea at speakeasy.net
http://envy.posixnap.net/