[geeks] just for you guys....

[Michael Conlen]

> -----Original Message-----
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Michael Conlen wrote:
> > I'm really, really interested in how this is cruel, or
> offensive. Off topic
> > I can see, inappropriate for the list, sure, but cruel and
> offensive, I just
> > don't get it.
>
> you don't have to. if you choose to go around shortsighted and ignorant of
> others' feelings your entire life then that's your choice and i don't
> have a problem with it. if, however, you start inflicting that upon others
> then i'll pretty much start mouthing off. that's more or less what bill
> did, what others have done, what you did as well although at least you had
> the politeness to ask if you had somehow just missed something somewhere
> (i think you did).

Okay, I'll grant that you were offended, and thus it's offensive, however I
still don't see cruel and I don't see it as being intended to be offensive
or something to make fun of someone. If I ever got around to learning how to
walk on 6" heals and did drag (I've been seriously considering it) I'd think
it was cool that I did it well enough to actually be mistaken for a woman.

> that wasn't the point of it. see, first thing bill does this morning is he
> posts a url more or less making sport of both women and men who might
> happen to have androgenic qualities, whether naturally occuring
> or artificially
> provided. next thing you know, all the closet homophobics and shallow
> bigots (and its a small number, about 5 or 6) start piping up with their
> response/results and some really catty and mean remarks were made.
> generally the people who made said remarks have been this way
> before--it didnt
> shock or surprise me, it saddened me. but just because something doesnt
> shock or surprise me doesnt mean i (or anyone else) have to put up with it
> on a mailing list anfd machine i help run, especially when its coming from
> people who i generally put a lot of stock in as far as their
> intelligence and
> kindness.

I guess it's the "sport" of it. I'm not sure how it's making fun of it. I
think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to wonder if you can tell the
difference.

I can tell you it's a skill some poeple *need* to have. I've been in some
gay clubs and tried to pick up some girls who I thought were guys... ...some
of them have been very male unfriendly. Very not fun.

> it's cruel to make fun of someone for this, for any visual quality such as
> this. usually if it's done repetitively over a long term period it causes
> extreme depression, anxiety, hiding from life simply because of
> what a person
> just happens to be or to look like. its a cruel thing to knowingly and
> willingly push someone into this kind of state just for the
> bullshit excuse
> of 'fun'.

Like I said, I think there's a huge difference between someone who looks
androgynous and someone who is transexual or transgender. If it were a site
of women who had short hair and boyish looks who weren't trying to look like
boys I would completly understand your feelings.

> all i'm asking is for 5 or 6 people to grow the fuck up and get out of
> junior high. really. the ones who don't will probably just leave over
> time--probably rationalizing their storming off point of view as "it's
> just the internet, it don't mean shit". i'm sorry, but i can't
> delude myself
> like that. i'd rather keep a little hope that people can see where things
> are wrong when it's pointed out and fix them and everything might be a
> little more sunny-side up. :)

If there's one thing I've figured out, it's people are people, ain't nothing
you can do about it.

--
Groove On Dude
Michael Conlen
Obfuscated Networking
meconlen at obfuscated.net