[geeks] Religion vs. Politics was: Glad I don't live in Texas!

[Peter L. Wargo]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Tim H. wrote:

> with apologies to Pete, who is the only one I've seen lately to
> publicly declare a religious viewpoint and seems to be solid enough in
> his personal beliefs that my using him as an example won't threaten
> him.

No offense taken.  I consider it less a religion and more a philosophy (I
know Buddhist Christians, fer example), but that's splitting hairs.  Feel
free.

> Correct, religions tell people who follow they m how to live their
> lives.  And many _religious_people_ tell "outsiders how to live their
> lives, but that is patently ridiculous.  for example, I am a born
> again Christian, Pete is a Buddhist, I can tell Pete you should do x
> because it is the good Christian thing to do.  Pete can then have a
> good laugh, because being a good Christian is really not on his todo

Ahh, but what is interesting is when the act is a good thing to do
regardless.  For example, if I help someone in need, and I am not
Christian, then is it no longer the good Christian thing to do?

(I've actually been in this situation, where I was thanked for being a
"good Christian man", possibly because I'm white and North American.  When
I pointed out to said person that I was not Christian, they then ignored
me, even though they had been praising me 30 seconds before.  Odd, huh?
:-)

> back to my example.  My religious beliefs are such that I believe they
> are the only correct beliefs.  I can't force Pete to believe them, I
> can't even force Pete to listen to my beliefs.  Yet, I do wish that
> Pete believed as me.  My options are rather limited.  I can, in my

Oh, I don't know... We'd then have nothign to argue about, unless you
liked SGI. :-)

> associations with Pete let him see that I am an honest upright kind of
> guy, which can help relieve the sour taste left by pushy people who
  [...]
> I've never even met him in person)  If Pete were to inquire, I could
> explain to him what I believe, and why I believe it.  But in the end,
> any effort to MAKE Pete believe as I do would have the exact opposite
> effect.

As such, I have nothing against anything.  However, in my limited
experience, I have had more born-agains INSIST on telling me why I was
going to hell, even though I expressed my disinterest in knowing.
Granted, many religions suffer the same problem.  (Interestingly enough, I
seem to have a number of friends who are Witnesses, yet they've never
tried to convert me.)

I think if someone being happy and content in their faith is the best ad
possible.  When somebody tries to force it on another, I immediately see
that as being suspicious.  Missionaries are great at that - often, insted
of living by example, they've forced their belief systems on "primative"
people.  

> The sects that "force" belief with violence (and I use the term sects
> because I don't believe there is a "religion" which, as a whole,
> embraces violence.  The two that come to mind quickly are Islam and
> Christianity, which both have multiple militant branches.  And which
  [...]

Very true.  The funny thing is that the base messages are very similar.

> Personal beliefs have always been/always will be voluntary.  
> Religious politics (The Irish conflict is often labeled as a
> Catholic/Protestant fight) are very seldom (never?) actually about
> religious beliefs, they are about groups of people striving for
> power/money/political ideology.

Very often, it does not boil down to religion at all.  The crusades were
purely for profit, but was pushed on the soldiers as a "religious" war.

   [...]
> but the majority of them started when foreign missionaries didn't
> attempt to change all the cultural things, but instead went to Africa,
> and explained to people who wanted to listen what they believed.

I kind of disagree on that, but there is too much depth for a simple
comment to suffice.

> I may (do) disagree with Pete about Politics and Religion, if he were
> my neighbor we would argue about the politics when the mood struck us,
> and I'd gladly loan him my lawn mower.  A religious discussion would
> have to start with a question in one direction or the other.  As for
> the other neighbors, they would probably know how I believed, and how
> Pete believed, but neither one of us would be sticking tracts under
> their door.

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say
it." 

> and Pete, I hope nothing in this was offensive.

Not at all.  Well-expressed.

-Pete