[geeks] Re: Gun Control

[Phil Stracchino]

On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 01:09:01AM -0500, Thomas Gallaway wrote:
> Here is what I think. First of all I am 100% strictly against guns. I 
> live in the usa and I know stuff is beeing handled the wrong way. I know
> you can own guns in germany too if you have a license as a hunter
> and I know if you want to buy a gun you could buy one in germany
> no matter what. Now the question is are they just a bit smarter or why
> are there less gun related crimes than in the USA.
> 
> Also I think that guns itselfe build up bad charma. If you own a gun
> you more likely get (or want??) into a situation to make use of it. Also
> if you have a gun the chances are 50% that if the person doing harm
> to you can shoot you too. So why take the 50% chance. If the other
> person does see you have a gun he for sure will shoot.

OK, please stop right there.  You are not citing facts; your arguments
are unfounded, uninformed speculation.


1.  "If you own a gun you more likely get (or want??) into a situation
to make use of it."
 
Most people who own a gun for personal protection aren't stupid enough
to go intentionally looking for trouble with it.  Reputable personal
protection classes, in fact, teach situational awareness -- not just
knowing when you're in a dangerous situation, but recognizing when you
may be headed *into* a dangerous situation in time to turn around ahd
head somewhere *else*.  Crime statistics show that, nationwide,
concealed carry permit holders (who are ALL, by definition, gun owners)
are several times more law-abiding than the general population.  In
some states, concealed-carry permit holders are more law-abiding --
even down to traffic citations -- than the *police*.

If this speculation of yours were true, shootings and violent crime in
general would be highest in the areas where gun ownership is highest. 
In fact, the reverse is true -- the higher the incidence of gun
ownership in an area, the lower the crime rate, and that turns out to be
true not just of violent crime but of most types of property crime as
well.


2.  "Also if you have a gun the chances are 50% that if the person doing
harm to you can shoot you too."

Only if the other person also has a gun.  And if he does and you don't,
it's a 100% chance that he can shoot you and you can't stop him.  Even
if neither of you has a gun, if your attacker has a knife or, say, a
baseball bat, or is bigger and stronger than you are, or simply crazier
and more willing to commit mayhem, or if you're outnumbered two or 
three or five to one, you're in BAD trouble.


3.  "If the other person does see you have a gun he for sure will shoot."

Not true.  He can do your (admittedly bad) math too.  Criminals are, as
a whole, cowards -- they prefer the odds strongly in their favor.  Only
the most deranged criminals will intentionally get into a gunfight with
a known armed opponent -- if the odds aren't overwhelmingly in favor,
they'll split the scene and look for easier prey.  In more than 95% of
firearm self-defense incidents in the US, the gun is never fired -- the
intended victim has merely to show the gun, and the attackers *LEAVE*.
Less than 1% of intended victims have to actually shoot their attackers.

If your speculation were true, every self-defense incident involving an
attacker with a gun would turn into a gunfight, and it just ain't so, to
say nothing of self-defense incidents in which the attacker has "only" a
knife, an improvised club, or superior physical strength.


> But I guess it will just take a few more decades until people wake up.
> Back when I was still living in germany I was never scared of beeing
> at the wrong place.

Then you're very foolish.  An attacker who doesn't have a gun can still
stab you or bludgeon you with a blunt implement, and three or four
attackers who don't have guns can still beat you senseless through sheer
weight of numbers.  The wrong place is the wrong place, REGARDLESS of
whether anyone on either side has a gun.

> Here I always have this thought in the back of my
> head that if I say something wrong to somebody, and he has a gun,
> he might shoot me. Why can I not have peace in my mind?

I don't know, but I think you need to talk to a psychologist about it.

> By the way I say this cause I had a crazy coworker at work point a gun
> at my head cause he wanted to show how cool his gun is. Not to
> mention that was his last day at work. I told my boss I would quit if
> he would not fire him. From that day on I was scared to go to my car
> after work...

I think you just answered your own question.  I reiterate my suggestion
about seeing a psychologist.  You clearly haven't gotten over the
experience yet.

OK, so you had *ONE* bad experience with *ONE* stupid, irresponsible,
dangerous co-worker of the kind that give ALL the rest of us bad names. 
I will walk for the rest of my life with a limp because of one stupid
woman who pulled an illegal left turn, but I'm not terrified to go near
a road, and I don't say that all cars should be taken away.

Do you refuse to eat any food because you had food poisoning once?
Do you refuse to go to a doctor because some doctors occasionally make
mistakes?
Do you refuse to read any email because some email is spam?

Your former co-worker is unfit to own a gun, and should very probably
seek psychiatric treatment.  Please don't tar us all with the same
brush.

With reference to your comment about "a few more decades until people
wake up", I suggest you get used to the idea that you're living in the
US now and stop thinking of it as Germany.  It isn't, and the society is
different in many ways.  Most of us agree that recent gun control
initiatives are moves in the wrong direction and are making problems
worse, not better.  Objective studies appear to fairly unanimously
confirm that this is in fact the case.

Don't apply what you think are the solutions from Germany to the
problems of the US -- they're the wrong solutions, because it's a
different problem.  You said yourself (albeit not in so many words) that
gun ownership does not in your opinion create a problem in Germany, so
why is it that you think gun ownership in and of itself is the cause of
the problem here?



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