[geeks] Re: [rescue] Paintball

[Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, N. Miller wrote:

>
> Trying to move to geeks...

I had to actually subscribe to geeks to reply to this thread :)

> You make a strong assumption about my background that is false.  I
> do know what happens in modern warfare training because I was in
> ROTC for several years, have many friends in all branches of the
> US armed forces, and am well-versed with firearms and their history
> from both being an NRA member and living with an NRA card-carrying
> Canadian who is also a military historian.

So: Have you gone to a military academy? Have you been in active duty
for over a year? Have you participated in real NATO exercises? Have you
been deployed in a REAL operation, have you seen REAL combat? Have you
been shot at with real fire?


> You trivialize the experience of a team that plays paintball together
> every weekend for years by comparing the experience to playing Doom.
> Clicking a mouse paintball is not.  Nor is paintball simply a 'shoot-em
> up' as you so blithely put it.

Yes I did, and I still do, and I will trivialize the "paintball
experience" as long as any paintballer tries to trivialize the real
military experience by trying to claim that somehow paintball gives the
participant the same level of skills of a real infrantry.

The problem that we are having here is that we may be butting heads when
it comes to the transitive properties of paintball, i.e. the fact that
fake ammunition can be use for military training does not imply that
anyone else playing around with fake amunition gets to have the same
skills period.

> I have both lead a 'side' and been a team member in 24-hour scenario
> paintball events, and do know in fact, that they have a purposefully
> constructed similarity to modern military training games, else there
> would be no point in participating in them.

OK, lets make a few points clear. On why I believe paintball and army
skills are not compatible. And why paintabll will not be used as an army
training technique any time soon:

If you take an army unit and put them in one of your 24-hour scenario X
games. They will be slaughtered by you guys. Does that make that you are
better trained than the army? No by a long shot, get real guns and get a
real scenario and you last all of 5 minutes against the same guys. Why?

One of the main things is that flanking in paintball and real action are
completelly different. During paintball you tend to flank quickly and to
the point, in real military situations once you find cover you wait as
long as you can because a) you want your enemy to move first to give away
its location and b)therefore you are trained to be patient -which is a bad
thing when you are playing paintball.

These are points that have been brought from some of my old army buddies
some of which are avid paintballers, and they claim that sometimes their
army training can betray them during serious paintball. Also -and I again
I have to refer to their comments- they can see how adding paintball
skills to your training can be a dangerous thing. Real army people have a
general mistrust of "modern" training methods and to some point I agree,
the only good training is the one devised by veterans. Any other "ideas"
or "additions" by non-veterans or people who have not seen combat are
dangerous. Period...


> And honestly, if you think that keeping a paintball marker going is any
> easier than a Vietnam era M16, then you've never seen the inside of an
> Angel or any other electro-pnuematic marker.

Well I could taka a SC2000 (just to be somewhat on topic here) and bring
it with me to train. Heck is far more complex than my HK... so what? Am I
gonna fight wit it? No, am I gonna fight with the paintball gun? No,
therefore any "fighting" training time that I do w/o my weapon is a waste of time.

>
> As for the rest of your comments, while I appreciate your opinion, I cannot
> agree.  I know a lot more about fire control, fields of fire, enfilading,
> conservation of resources, stealth, diversion, and a multitude of other
> strategic and tactical concepts as a direct result of playing paintball--
> and no military trainers were directing me.  I also believe I am a better
> marksman with firearms as a result of putting ~20K rounds through my
> paintball marker over the last two years.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, as an ex-green beret (GOE-I!!
"Con nosotros quien quiera, contra nosotros quien pueda") I will continue
dealing with paintball exactly as what it is: a sport. Other sort
of ramifications that you want to make out of it are ludicrous IMHO. Wanna
get the same skills as an advanced infantry man? Go ahead and join a real
unit.

> Of course, I also think that Americans should not be paying taxes on
> their wages (i.e. the profit of their labor) nor has our Congress the
> right to restrict our use of firearms, so mine is certainly a minority
> opinion.  Pacifism only works if the oppressors are civilized.


LOL, so I guess we are in the opposite end of the spectrum :) I am a
socialist, and a pacifist to boot. But variety is the spice of life, so we
will just have to tolerate each other :). I put up and I served my country
which is far more than most armchair "militarist" can say, but I will to combat
in a heartbeat once the person who makes the decision to send the young to
die comes with me in the first wave. Until then I will stay at home, much
like the old men who send the young ones to die do.

> Paintball may be "just a game" to some. But to others, it is having
> a shaping impact on the youth in the US, as it's the second fastest
> growing extreme sport in the US, and has been in the top 10 fastest
> growing sports for over 5 years.

So? It still is "just a game"... again, I think it is cool that you like
it and what not. I just disagree with making it more than what it really
is. I got through one of the toughest trainings in western military so I
get a bit touchy when someone tries to "trivialize" or maybe I just
misread your language. There are somethings that hit close to home
sometimes and maybe my response may be a bit too harsh. If that is the
case I apologize.