[geeks] Re: [rescue] It's official, the U.S. is screwedfor4more years

[Michael Horton]

the actual practice is the imitation of jesus of nazareth who, when he
was tried, did not defend himself.

there is no dualism is the teachings of the bible/biblical
judiaism/christianity.
yes, there is good and evil but they are not equal in strength or extent
while dualism is two opposing forces of equal strength and extent.

the thought of a heaven or hell to be gained only after death is foreign
to both biblical judaism and biblical christianity.  for instance, the
keeping of jewish feasts was out of thanksgiving to god and *not* fear
of god.  while fear is an effective motivator, it is defective (don't we
all hate it when our boss threatens us?).  the imagery of god in the
bible is pointedly that of a parent with a child.  this is a
relationship that is brought out of love.  (did you ever experience
discipline as a child from a parent/parnet figure and years later
realize that it was a good thing?  did you ever get a toy or an ice
cream when you asked for it?  did you ever have a problem that a parent
"sat beside" you and helped you through it?)

there are those groups who are termed "pacifists" (sic).  they provide a
balance and a caution against charging into war needlessly, etc.  among
christian and so-called christian groups are the anabaptists, the
friends (aka, quakers) but historically and amoung the majority of
christian and so-called christian groups the following is true.

* a christian is permitted to be in the armed forces and law enforcement
agencies and are permitted to take human life  without any condemnation
(for a justified act).
* a christian is permitted to work as a district attorney, serve on a
jury, bring witness against a person, even work as an executioner.  all
of these activities have resulted in the loss of life.
* self-defense and protection of those unable to defend themselves

unfortunately, the theory that one must earn god's pleasure has crept
into biblical judaism/christianity.  but the old testament knows nothing
of this theory.  instead abraham is called the friend of god during his
lifetime.  jacob is called the prince of god during his lifetime.
david, in spite of his failings and bad decisions, is called a man after
god's own heart.  even one of the thieves on the cross with jesus of
nazareth was told before his death that he would be in paradise with
jesus.  (in fact, the thief on the cross is a most pointed example
because he could do nothing, hanging on a cross, to earn god's
favour--he was literally "nailed to the wall".)


-----Original Message-----
From: geeks-bounces at sunhelp.org [mailto:geeks-bounces at sunhelp.org] On
Behalf Of Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 4:32 PM
To: The Geeks List
Subject: Re: [geeks] Re: [rescue] It's official, the U.S. is
screwedfor4more years
<<<SNIP>>>

> So ....  God loves his chosen people, but forbids them
>to defend
> themselves against persecution?

The theory behind this, as a recovering Christian, is that
only god has the ultimate power (i.e. life and death) and
taking someone's life is stealing god's abilities since
he/she is the only one who can create life AND destroy it.
We just rent our bodies for the time being if you wanna
think of it that way. As per usual the bible can be
interpreted to basically support any position you want
(that is one of my main beefs with using a book with
serious continuity problems as a moral guide). The whole
notion of christianity is the duality of heaven/hell and
our earthly existance being nothing more than a testing
ground to see where you are supposed to go when you die.
What the ultimate purpose of that is, it is really beyond
me... but it is a neat way of having a carrot at the end
of the stick if you ask me.

>
> See, it's things like this that are one of the reasons
>I've never been
> able to accept the basic ideas of Christianity.  If God
>exists, and the
> Bible is an accurate rendering of his acts, intentions
>and grand design,
> then the old guy's got to be crazier than a fruitbat.

Maybe he is a she, who knows... but the problem is that
God is not there talking to us directly... which should
not be much of a problem if he/she is trully omnipotent so
I do not think that a five minutes chat from him/her would
be much of a bother (Hello there, I am god... and this is
what I want, and voila). The problem is the people who
tell us what god "wants" because he/she talks to them and
we must take their word for it. And as per usual, religion
IMHO is just an evolutionary mechanism to keep large
masses of humans in check. Which may be a good thing for
the overall benefit of the species, hence its evolutionary
introduction.

Of course there is the possiblity that if God does indeed
exist, that maybe he is crazier than a fruitbar... that is
always a possibility that should be contemplated. I always
enjoyed the theodicy paradox regarding god and the
possibilities it opens.

However after the last election, my first question was
"OK, who stepped on the butterfly" As a reference to the
Sound of Thunder short story...

I appreciate the calm discussion in this group, and some
of the points are rather interesting.
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