[geeks] christianity and judaism

[Michael Horton]

neither you nor i speak biblical hebrew.  (biblical hebrew had no
pointings; they were added by the moserites [sic]).
i never spoke hebrew because i am hearing impaired and even when i could
hear i couldn't distinguish all the sounds--particularly the vowel
sounds.  i can't even communicate in spanish (which is a simpler
language that i have studied).
i haven't read the bible in hebrew in years.
but i do remember my studies then and how to read a lexicon.

the qal stem for kippur (three radicals, right) means "he covers"
whereas atonement has the concept of taking away.
yom kippur provided a sacrifice that covered sins for a year (the blood
of bulls and goats cannot take away or atone for  sin) and points to a
day when sin/s will be taken away (as far as the east is from the west).


>Again, I don't see how this supports your claim of a covenant.  Any and

all are welcome to believe and worship, but that doesn't require a
covenant.

this is a distinction without difference.


>Just out of curiosity, why do you keep including Nebuchadnezzar in your

list of righteous gentiles?

because neb. became a "righteous gentile".
after his experiencing the authority of god though seven years of
"insanity" (as one writer described it), there was a dramatic change in
his lifestyle evidenced by his proclamation concerning the god of daniel
and the storing of the temple and palace ornaments from public view.
(his grandson had to drag them out of storage to profane them.)

concerning the covenant.  i understand that there is one covenant that
god makes with people.  that one covenant has terms relevant to the
situation.  the expression (of the covenant) which was given to adam is
different than the one given to noah which is different from the one
given to abram(, and down through the remaining expressions of the
convenant).  the expressions change but the covenant remains the same.

the "cutting of the covenant"  of the "covenant of the pieces" that you
mentioned is to me this is the most precious of the expressions of the
covenant.  in it, abram is guaranteed to be a blessing to all nations.
the psalmist speaks in these terms: "let the peoples praise you, let all
the peoples praise you" (67).  zechariah speaks of a day when all the
inhabitants (jew, goy, greek, barbarian, man, woman, old, young,
whatever) of the earth will journey to zion to praise god together.
this covenant of pieces also expresses the exclusivity of the covenant
in its application to men and to praising   god.  since the covenant
belongs to god and is maintained by god, he can extend it to whomever he
wills.

please realize that i am not trying to give you a "hard time" but am
trying to explain in as gracious terms as i can muster and having the
desire that the prophecy of zechariah be fulfilled in my lifetime.



-----Original Message-----
From: geeks-bounces at sunhelp.org [mailto:geeks-bounces at sunhelp.org] On
Behalf Of sammy ominsky
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 3:48 PM
To: The Geeks List
Subject: Re: [geeks] christianity and judaism


On Nov 10, 2004, at 15:09, Michael Horton wrote:

>> That accounting is one of the allusions to an afterlife.  What's the
>> point of an accounting without a reckoning?
>
> there are many others that are "reckoning".  (i have never seen that
> word in the technical literature.)

Huh?

>> No idea what you're talking about here.  Kapara is atonement.
>
> the hebrew word for kippur means covering.  (brown-driver-briggs,
> gesenius [sic]) this is a different word than atonement.  since the
> yom kippur foreshadows the day of atonement, the idea of atonement is
> brought into the term but never displaces its basic meaning of
> covering.

You don't actually read or speak Hebrew, do you?  Every Hebrew word has
a root, and many words share roots.  Under close examination, you will
find that words that share roots have connected underlying concepts.  I
have no idea what your reference is, but k-p-r is the root for kapara,
and definitely, without question means atone.



> isaish quoted god as saying "my house shall be called a house of
> prayer for all nations".

Yes, all are welcome, but this doesn't support your claim of a covenant.


> that is a pretty clear that the agreement given to abraham and defined

> by the law is applicable to goyim also.

Not to me.


> but look also at rahab, ruth, naaman, nebuchanezzar (sic), the sailors

> in jonah, ninevah: all gentiles.

Again, I don't see how this supports your claim of a covenant.  Any and
all are welcome to believe and worship, but that doesn't require a
covenant.


> and look at abram/abraham, issac, jacob/israel: they lived before the
> agreement given through moses and cannot be rightly called jews (any
> more than david can be called a christian).

Abraham had the covenant of the pieces (I don't know how else to
translate it). He was called the "Ivri", which has a number of
connotation, one of which could be "hebrew".  There were no "Jews"
until much later, after the Romans called the area Judea, for the
people of the tribe of Judah, who were the majority of the remnant of
Israel left after Sencherib scattered the ten tribes.

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep including Nebuchadnezzar in your
list of righteous gentiles?

> and look to zechariah's promise of the goyim joining israel in worship

> of good. and look to the psalms: 67: all the nations will worship god

See above.  All are welcome to worship, but that does not constitute a
covenant.


---sambo
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