[geeks] Q: Regarding Linux in K-12 education

[gsm at mendelson.com]

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 08:20:40PM -0500, Nate wrote:
>I've heard similar lines of reasoning behind why kids shouldn't use Macs, and
>I think it's a poor line of reasoning.

I can tell you from experience that any attempt I made to introduce them to
Macs was a problem. The schools used Windows computers, Macs were something
else and they could not at the ages I tried learn both. 

However you can get a job with Mac experience in the real world, there is
a small percentage of companies, mostly in niche markets that actually
want Mac experience. 

>
>Also of note, as a graduate of one of the highest-ranked private boarding
>schools in the US, I wouldn't say that I or any other student there during the
>early '90s was somehow short-shrifted by the platform-agnostic approach of the
>computer center (Mac, Windows, DOS, and a few Apple II systems all
>side-by-side).

Just of of curiosity, how many graduates of that school went on to clerical
(office) jobs? Remember that even in the best public school district most
students will never go to college. 

IMHO the post-Sputnik push for higher education has burnt out. Students
who don't know how to use Windows computers will be at a disadvantage, they
will end up going to private schools to learn how. 

You are making the assumption that your experience is relevant to an entire
school district, which is quite unlikely. How many students from the original
district in question would be qualified to get in to your school? How many
would go on to college? 

Think how of all of those girls (and now boys) that will go on to office jobs
that had to take secretatial skills classes (we had them in my high school)
will fare if they don't know windows. Look at it as if they a generation
earlier had taken typing clases with Dvorak keyboards. 

They go out into the real world and find not a single employer would let
them use one for a typing test.

I pretty much just did say the say thing about Macs didn't I? Few problems
for college bound, disaster for the future office workers.

How about a link to the school. At least I provided them to give context.


>Oblivion?  Yes, they're not as high profile, but I'm not sure I'd say
>'oblivion', and I'm sure a good deal of that has to do with under-the-table
>pressure that Microsoft has (and does) exert on major OEMs.

Yes oblivion. Looking in Friday's paper, there are hundreds of adds for 
laptops, and probaly 30 or 40 different models or variations of netbooks
offered for sale. NOT ONE of them is offered with Linux they are all offered
with eithter (depending upon model) with XP Home or WIN7 Basic.

Looking at the websites of major companies here, not one is sold with Linux.

Not that I expect you to be able to read them, but here are some links to
big netbook vendors:
  
www.officedepot.co.il
www.bug.co.il
www.kravitz.co.il
www.ivory.co.il
www.ksp.co.il

There are several importers of Dell computers, and there is a company called
Dell Israel, but their connection with Dell, Inc is tenuous at best, they
don't carry many models or versions of those models and will not service
or sell parts to service any computer they did not sell.

>
>That's a vague assertion, since I don't know the criteria you've established
>for what it means to "learn" an operating system, or established why it would
>be a bad thing to "learn" how something works. 

Because he has to USE the darn thing, not spend all of his time figuring out
how it works. Not everyone wants to do that. Most people want to get on 
with their life, look at their web pages, watch their videos and do their
homework.

We could discuss for hours why it's a bad thing that people don't want to
take things apart or in general figure out how they work anymore, but it's
irrelevant to this discussion. Most of the students don't care, won't care
and would rather spend their time getting passing grades, or if they are
smart enough higher grades to get into college.


> I've set up first-time
>computer users with recent releases of Ubuntu, and they've had almost no
>problems with it in common tasks (the biggest issue had to do with a bug in
>the solitaire program that comes with Ubuntu where if change to full-screen
>mode, it doesn't easily come out of it).  I've also seen long-time Windows
>users get along ok on Ubuntu as well.  I'd also argue that whatever efforts
>anyone has to make to get to know any operating system better, especially when
>they are comparing it to other operating systems (and there will certainly be
>plenty of opportunity to compare to Windows in this world), isn't a bad thing.

First of all, he's not a first time computer user. He does have PDD (mild
autism) so he is just learning to read and it ain't English. He's had
computers in his education since he was 4 or 5 (he's 11 now), but they've
always been windows. 

Talk about vague assertions. I've seen...... I too have seen that happen,
although one case was where someone was given a latop and had to promise to
never install any Microsoft products on it. It was set up with Novell SUSE,
and totally incomprehensible to her. I installed UBUNTU on it and she used
it for a summer. 

She then went to an HP notebook running Windows XP as soon as she could afford
it, and now uses an ACER netbook with Windows XP. Her VISTA desktop recently 
failed and was replaced with a Windows 7 system. She did not ask for UBUNTU
to be installed on any of them. 

So I will counter your vague assertion with one that while they can use
it, they won't like it, and the moment you walk out the door, if they can
install Windows. :-)

  
>I think of operating systems to be pseudo-linguistic, yet I doubt many people
>would characterize learning more than one language as a 'bad' thing or an
>either/or proposal the way people seem to approach computer operating
>systems.

I expect that you are 95% wrong here. Considering that many people in the
US learn one language, and only study a "foreign" language in school, they
don't want to spend the effort and time to do so.

Unlike here where your average high school student studies in Hebrew and
learns English and Arabic to as part of the state mandated curriculum.
Arabic is not required for the college matriculation exams, and actual
attendance is not required, so when it conflicted with my son teaching
himself Japanese, the school dropped it.

Bear in mind that everyone you see on the street, deal with in your
normal course of business, etc went through the public school system, 
while you may prefer a more educated person offering you fries with your
burger, or a person with a higher IQ taking your cake order at Wal-Mart,
it's not going to happen. 

Unless you make some sort of rule that people who do not fulfull your
intelligence and educational criteria don't get jobs and must spend their
life on welfare (which is a totally different discussion), your school
system must be able to educate them. 

Forceing them to use computers that don't work the way they will need when
they enter the job market will put them at a disadvantage and do you really
want to do that? 

I also want to note that one university in Philly required all entering 
undergrads to buy Macs when they first came out. It did not well, you 
can look it up if you want.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm at mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
New word I coined 12/13/09, "Sub-Wikipedia" adj, describing knowledge or
understanding, as in he has a sub-wikipedia understanding of the situation. 
i.e possessing less facts or information than can be found in the Wikipedia.