[rescue] rescue Digest, Vol 105, Issue 31
Gary Sloane
gksloane at hotmail.com
Thu Aug 25 21:44:29 CDT 2011
What (exactly) does all this blather have to do with Sun computers,
specifically Sparcstation20 hard drives? This forum has decomposed into a
social network completely unrelated to Sun computers. You guys should meet on
facebook and let the rest of us do what this forum is supposed to.
> From: rescue-request at sunhelp.org
> Subject: rescue Digest, Vol 105, Issue 31
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:36:25 -0500
>
> Send rescue mailing list submissions to
> rescue at sunhelp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> rescue-request at sunhelp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> rescue-owner at sunhelp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of rescue digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Sandwich Maker)
> 2. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Mouse)
> 3. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Phil Stracchino)
> 4. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Phil Stracchino)
> 5. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Lex Landa)
> 6. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Brooke Gravity)
> 7. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Patrick Giagnocavo)
> 8. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Sandwich Maker)
> 9. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Mouse)
> 10. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Andrew Jones)
> 11. Re: Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks (Steve Sandau)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
> From: adh at an.bradford.ma.us (Sandwich Maker)
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <201108251925.p7PJPA803570 at an.bradford.ma.us>
>
> " From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> "
> " On 08/25/11 11:49, Lex Landa wrote:
> " > On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 09:13 -0400, Mouse wrote:
> " >
> " >> I dunno. Unless I change in some very fundamental way (move my mind
to
> " >> silicon instead of protein maybe, if that becomes possible in time), I
> " >> don't expect to want to live forever.
> " >
> " > []
> " >
> " > Maybe that will be the next phase of computer history: preservation of
> " > the computer history enthusiast, the computer, and all media relating
to
> " > the history of all of the above.
> "
> "
> " I'd prefer to think in terms of upload into a Culture Mind, myself. ;)
> "
> " Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility that,
> " assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my physical
> " body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the capability
> " to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
>
> what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> -original-, which still dies. the fate of me - the original - isn't
> changed just b/c the -copy- lives forever. nor does it matter if 3rd
> parties can't tell the difference between us - i can.
>
> now, organic anti-aging research... i've heard anecdotally that if
> you could maintain the health one normally enjoys at age 10, you could
> live to be 1000.
>
> i don't want to achieve immortality through my work, i want to achieve
> immortality by not dying
> - woody allen
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay the genius nature
> internet rambler is to see what all have seen
> adh at an.bradford.ma.us and think what none thought
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:25:55 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
> To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <201108252025.QAA12413 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >> Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility
> >> that, assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my
> >> physical body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the
> >> capability to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
> > what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> > -original-, which still dies.
>
> In a sense. But in some sense, we're all dying all the time.
>
> It's continuity of sense-of-self, which mostly means continuity of
> memory, that I care about. If my mind can be moved to a silicon
> substrate, I wouldn't care about the meat substrate I left behind any
> more than I care about the way my current body's cells keep dying all
> the time now.
>
> > the fate of me - the original - isn't changed just b/c the -copy-
> > lives forever.
>
> But what is "me"? We don't yet know what "me" will be when - if - that
> sort of thing becomes possible.
>
> > nor does it matter if 3rd parties can't tell the difference between
> > us - i can.
>
> Can you? Maybe you won't be able to. We don't yet know. For all we
> know, it may turn out that during the time that both the CHON you and
> the silicon you exist, they will share a single mind.
>
> It's also possible it'll work out some other way. We just don't know
> yet.
>
> /~\ The ASCII Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:31:48 -0400
> From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <4E56B134.1070006 at metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 08/25/11 15:25, Sandwich Maker wrote:
> > " From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> > " Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility that,
> > " assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my physical
> > " body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the capability
> > " to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
> >
> > what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> > -original-, which still dies. the fate of me - the original - isn't
> > changed just b/c the -copy- lives forever. nor does it matter if 3rd
> > parties can't tell the difference between us - i can.
>
> Ah, the tricky and difficult question of forward continuity. Yes, I've
> pondered that one myself many, many times.
>
>
>
> --
> Phil Stracchino, CDK#2 DoD#299792458 ICBM: 43.5607, -71.355
> alaric at caerllewys.net alaric at metrocast.net phil at co.ordinate.org
> Renaissance Man, Unix ronin, Perl hacker, SQL wrangler, Free Stater
> It's not the years, it's the mileage.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:06:17 -0400
> From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <4E56B949.8000801 at metrocast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 08/25/11 16:25, Mouse wrote:
> >>> Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility
> >>> that, assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my
> >>> physical body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the
> >>> capability to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
> >> what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> >> -original-, which still dies.
> >
> > In a sense. But in some sense, we're all dying all the time.
> >
> > It's continuity of sense-of-self, which mostly means continuity of
> > memory, that I care about. If my mind can be moved to a silicon
> > substrate, I wouldn't care about the meat substrate I left behind any
> > more than I care about the way my current body's cells keep dying all
> > the time now.
>
> See, that's the thing. BACKWARD continuity is easy. It's relatively
> easy for the hardware-housed me-consciousness instance to wake up with
> all the memories and experiences of the wetware me-consciousness instance.
>
> What's hard is forward continuity - for the me-consciousness instance
> that is present in the wetware to go to sleep and wake up in the hardware.
>
> To look at it another way, copying is easy; moving is hard.
>
>
>
> --
> Phil Stracchino, CDK#2 DoD#299792458 ICBM: 43.5607, -71.355
> alaric at caerllewys.net alaric at metrocast.net phil at co.ordinate.org
> Renaissance Man, Unix ronin, Perl hacker, SQL wrangler, Free Stater
> It's not the years, it's the mileage.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:29:43 +0000
> From: Lex Landa <brooknet at imap.cc>
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <1314307783.29986.56.camel at idoru>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 17:06 -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>
> > What's hard is forward continuity - for the me-consciousness instance
> > that is present in the wetware to go to sleep and wake up in the
hardware.
>
> This is a similar debate as to the one of Star Trek transporter
> technology: to move something, you have to make a copy of something, and
> then kill the original. As Mouse says, if we're dying all the time and
> so, we choose to replace the failing biological hardware with
> silicon-based technology that is immune to the ravages of time, at which
> point do we cease to be 'the old selves' and become 'new, improved'?
> This is the sort of thing that I was thinking about as I was out
> walking, earlier: I walked through a field that I had not visited for
> many years. In some part of my memory, my experiences of that earlier
> time were recorded - but was the me who walked through the original
> field the same me as reflected on it, later?
>
> I think I need a stiff drink.
>
> Lex
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:49:25 -0400
> From: Brooke Gravity <gravitt at gmail.com>
> To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <584DC40A-DDB6-4BB7-A445-8C49A609CC85 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Aug 25, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Lex Landa <brooknet at imap.cc> wrote:
>
> >
> >> - but was the me who walked through the original
> > field the same me as reflected on it, later?
> >
> > I think I need a stiff drink.
> >
> > Lex
> > ______________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:33:16 -0400
> From: Patrick Giagnocavo <patrick at zill.net>
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <4E56DBBC.9060306 at zill.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 8/25/2011 4:31 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> > On 08/25/11 15:25, Sandwich Maker wrote:
> >> " From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> >> " Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility that,
> >> " assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my
physical
> >> " body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the capability
> >> " to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
> >>
> >> what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> >> -original-, which still dies. the fate of me - the original - isn't
> >> changed just b/c the -copy- lives forever. nor does it matter if 3rd
> >> parties can't tell the difference between us - i can.
> >
> > Ah, the tricky and difficult question of forward continuity. Yes, I've
> > pondered that one myself many, many times.
> >
> >
> >
>
> They call 'em fingers, but I've never seen 'em fing... Oh, there they go
> - Otto
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:34:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: adh at an.bradford.ma.us (Sandwich Maker)
> To: rescue at sunhelp.org
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <201108260034.p7Q0Ye006357 at an.bradford.ma.us>
>
> " From: Phil Stracchino <alaric at metrocast.net>
> "
> " On 08/25/11 16:25, Mouse wrote:
> " >>> Though seriously, I consider it within the bounds of possibility
> " >>> that, assuming we do not suffer a civilization crash, by the time my
> " >>> physical body's ability to sustain me is exhausted, we will have the
> " >>> capability to opt for upload into zettabyte space.
> " >> what bothers me about that is, it's like email - only a -copy- of the
> " >> -original-, which still dies.
> " >
> " > In a sense. But in some sense, we're all dying all the time.
>
> we're also all regenerating all the time.
>
> " > It's continuity of sense-of-self, which mostly means continuity of
> " > memory, that I care about. If my mind can be moved to a silicon
> " > substrate, I wouldn't care about the meat substrate I left behind any
> " > more than I care about the way my current body's cells keep dying all
> " > the time now.
> "
> " See, that's the thing. BACKWARD continuity is easy. It's relatively
> " easy for the hardware-housed me-consciousness instance to wake up with
> " all the memories and experiences of the wetware me-consciousness
instance.
> "
> " What's hard is forward continuity - for the me-consciousness instance
> " that is present in the wetware to go to sleep and wake up in the
hardware.
> "
> " To look at it another way, copying is easy; moving is hard.
>
> that is the very nub of my gist, if i may quote j. cleese... making a
> copy then destroying the original - as in the star trek transporter -
> may appear to have the same effect as moving to observers, but it's
> very different for the principals involved.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Andrew Hay the genius nature
> internet rambler is to see what all have seen
> adh at an.bradford.ma.us and think what none thought
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:54:02 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
> To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <201108260054.UAA14298 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > See, that's the thing. BACKWARD continuity is easy. It's relatively
> > easy for the hardware-housed me-consciousness instance to wake up
> > with all the memories and experiences of the wetware me-consciousness
> > instance.
>
> > What's hard is forward continuity - for the me-consciousness instance
> > that is present in the wetware to go to sleep and wake up in the
> > hardware.
>
> What's the difference?
>
> That's a serious question. I'm not convinced there actually is any
> difference between those two.
>
> It amounts to defining exactly what "the me-consciousness instance" is;
> you seem to have some meaning for it for which there actually is a
> distinction there, whereas I'm not sure there is such a thing. It
> seems at least plausible (though definitely not certain) to me that the
> consciousness instance *is* the continuity of memory and experience.
>
> > To look at it another way, copying is easy; moving is hard.
>
> I'm not sure we have inumbers nor hardlinks, though. :)
>
> /~\ The ASCII Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:15:05 -0400
> From: Andrew Jones <andrew at jones.ec>
> To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <4E56F399.6090802 at jones.ec>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 08/25/2011 08:34 PM, Sandwich Maker wrote:
> >
> > that is the very nub of my gist, if i may quote j. cleese... making a
> > copy then destroying the original - as in the star trek transporter -
> > may appear to have the same effect as moving to observers, but it's
> > very different for the principals involved.
>
> Truth is, it's probably healthy for the "copy" to witness the death of
> the original. The period of your coexistence must be *agonizing*.
> Knowing that you are a perfect clone of another living being, the sense
> of being a "copy," has to be miserable.
>
> Witnessing one's own death is probably the happiest day in the life of
> machine intelligence.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:36:11 -0400
> From: Steve Sandau <ssandau at gwi.net>
> To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org>
> Subject: Re: [rescue] Sun Sparcstation 20 hard disks
> Message-ID: <4E56F88B.6020701 at gwi.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Mouse wrote:
> >> See, that's the thing. BACKWARD continuity is easy. It's relatively
> >> easy for the hardware-housed me-consciousness instance to wake up
> >> with all the memories and experiences of the wetware me-consciousness
> >> instance.
> >
> >> What's hard is forward continuity - for the me-consciousness instance
> >> that is present in the wetware to go to sleep and wake up in the
> >> hardware.
> >
> > What's the difference?
> >
> > That's a serious question. I'm not convinced there actually is any
> > difference between those two.
> >
> > It amounts to defining exactly what "the me-consciousness instance" is;
> > you seem to have some meaning for it for which there actually is a
> > distinction there, whereas I'm not sure there is such a thing. It
> > seems at least plausible (though definitely not certain) to me that the
> > consciousness instance *is* the continuity of memory and experience.
>
> The difference is whether or not *I* wake up in my copy. When I (as the
> original to be copied or moved) "go to sleep" do I wake up in the copy
> or does something that jut contains my memories wake up? The question is
> whether my consciousness is transferred or not.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> rescue maillist - rescue at sunhelp.org
> http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>
>
> End of rescue Digest, Vol 105, Issue 31
> ***************************************
More information about the rescue
mailing list