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[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 02:50:37PM -0400, Shannon Hendrix wrote:
> I see the exact opposite of what you see: the UN dragging us into  
> things we don't need to be involved in, plus we pay for most of it.

The U.S. does not get dragged into much of what it does not want.
The real "dragger" here is the U.S. State Department, which has
a Foreign Policy of its own. 
 

> The problem from our point of view is that Israel wants to "pacify"  
> everyone around them, which means fairly large scale warfare, and you  
> want the US military to help you do it.

We have not gotten any help from the U.S. since the first Gulf war
when the patriot miss the missles systems were installed. The two
SCUDS they hit were not destroyed, but broken in two, which caused
two large heavy objects to crash into the ground instead of one.

The only millitary aid we get from the U.S. is funny money which
has to be spent in the U.S., forcing us to buy the left over junk
no one would buy on the open market. For example the poorly designed
obsolete cluster bombs that were used in Lebanon.


> The world already hates that we support Israel at all and our support  
> of Israel is one of the most common criticisms leveled against us by  
> Europe.

That's because they think that giving the arabs free regin will stop
them from trying to turn Europe into part of The Calipahte, something
the Saudi's are doing with cash, and other Moslems are doing with
unrestricted immegration.
 
> I'm not sure what the solution is, but I am not sure the IDF has the  
> right idea.

Hey, this is Israel. Everyone has a different opinion.

> You make it sound simple, but I think the reality would be quite messy.

Make what sound simple?


> > If the U.S. had not supported Arafat, the PA would have become an
> > idependant country with a democratic government and decent schools,
> > hospitals and a real economy.
> 
> It *might* have.  We'll never know.

True.

 
> There is all kinds of second guessing that can be done.

I thought that was the whole point of this discussion :-)

> If the current ruling family falls, Saudi Arabia will turn severely  
> hostile toward Israel, which will complicate your situation a bit.

Worse than that, they will become an Islamic Republic and you will have
to buy your oil at high prices and toe their political line to get it.

> Yes, it sucks that we tolerate them, but Israel's situation is one of  
> the primary reasons we do it.

No, the U.S. tolerates it beacuse of cheap oil, though at at what point
it is no longer cheap may be seen awfully soon.

 
> I don't agree with it myself, but I do recognize that there is a  
> price to pay if we stop.

Going back to the original part of the discussion, that is what I think
Ron Paul is missing. 


> Is Israel ready for the aftermath of Saudi Arabia doing a 180?

Sure, we lived with it from 1948 until 1994, we can do it again.

> > However they also give you oil, so they are protected. I guess that
> > makes it in the U.S.'s interest to keep them happy.
> 
> ..and Europe, and Japan, and China, and Russia, and UK, and  
> ironically, Israel too.

Except that China and Russia EXPORT oil.


> *EVERYONE* with an industrial economy is currently dependent on that  
> area, Saudi Arabia included, either directly or indirectly.
> 
> There are alternatives but *NO ONE* has yet been willing to pursue  
> them seriously, and there are serious consequences to upsetting the  
> status quo.
> 
> Personally, I say we go for it and make them unimportant.

I'll agree with that. 

> However, I don't think that will stop terrorism, lest anyone agree  
> for that reason.

No, it will just encorage them. As long as the dollars keep flowing,
they will be able to buy loyalty and when they stop, they will take
it by force.

> But it would make things less complicated in our dealings with them  
> for sure.
> 
> Of course, this mistake started a long time ago, and is very well  
> entrenched.

Around the end of the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was
broken up.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm at mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/